Marie Bateson - Two Ectopic Pregnancies: Grieving the Finality of What Can Never Be

And welcome to this episode.

This episode I am joined with the lovely Marie.

How are you?

Thank you for being here.

Oh, you're welcome, thank you for having me.

My pleasure and I know it looks nice in my posts and obviously I volunteered to share your story, which I am so grateful for.

So thank you, because we're, just before we press recording where we just need to get more stories out to make awareness.

Yes, definitely.

Yeah.

Around this.

So do you want to share a little bit about your journey in your own words, lovely.

Yeah, sure.

Well, many years ago now, I had um, my son and everything was fantastic and went, you know, normal, no problem conceiving or anything.

But then I had... infertility issues, could not get pregnant for quite a long time, obviously desperately wanted a 2nd child, and To just cut the story short, we can go into more detail if you want later.

I had the 1st step propic pregnancy and didn't know I was pregnant to begin with.

And That floored me because I'd never expected anything like that.

It'd been so quick.

I'd been so quick to conceiving so easily the 1st time.

Anyway, after that, of course, it's even more increased infertility, because you've only one tube.

And only, you know, obviously only, well, no idea what percentage you've got of ovulating from the right side because you don't go left, right, left, right, you know?

So, After lots and lots of treatment.

Nothing had happened.

And then I got, A pregnancy.

I thought, brilliant, you know, test positive.

And within about a week, I'd started losing, and I thought, oh, this is just a threatened miscarriage, you know, surely.

Um, went in and they said, no, we can't see anything in the womb at all.

So it's probably another uptopic.

Went to surgery, new as soon as I'd come round that, yes, that's what they'd done, because you know, you've been sliced open and, you know, you can feel it, so I'd gone down hoping it wasn't, but came back with no tubes at all.

So, it was a very, very difficult period of time.

I felt like it was, The worst bereavement.

And I hadn't, had more than, you know, a week or 2 pregnant to even think about that, but it was the bereavement for what was now not going to happen naturally, like, yeah.

So it took a long, long time to get over that.

I used to seem okay during the day, but then I'd get into bed at night and the tears had come and, you know, I knew there was no way of, of a natural pregnancy any longer.

Um, no support groups.

No offer of support from hospital.

I mean, we are going back a long time, but, I'm not sure there's much more now.

Something I'd often thought about afterwards, it would be great to start a group, but at the time you're not in the headspace to do anything like that.

You want the support not to support others right away.

And I think it was perhaps the year after the 2nd depth topic we decided to go for IVF.

And thankfully it worked 1st time.

Um, and I got my daughter, but, you know, it sounds selfish for people who've never had any children that, it was so bad to not get a 2nd.

And it's, it's awful to say, but I think sometimes when you know what you're missing, it can be as bad as never having had one at all.

So, And everyone's different.

Everyone feels it different, don't they?

But there was no support, no groups, no information, not even a leaflet with these up topics.

Um, and you're going through full abdominal surgery as well at the time, and that's really what they're concerned with just the medical issues, and nothing else.

Yeah.

Recording for this podcast, the amount of store, every, I don't think I've interviewed one lady who's actually said that they had support.

Right. Which is just so alarming.

It is. It might, like you say, mine were quite a while ago, you know, I'd like to think things have improved, you know, somewhat, but I don't think they have, to be quite honest.

Um, I know there is more support groups and charities that have popped up now, haven't there, which is amazing and thank goodness for them, but I just still feel it's still a very a taboo subject and lack of support.

think so.

Yeah, I do.

I think there's miscarriage groups.

Um, sometimes I've seen those, but I've never seen anything for topic pregnancies at all.

But there could be, as I say, it's not something I'm looking for at the moment, but I, I just think it's worth sharing that it's, it's horrific because not only are you losing a baby.

You've got all this surgery to go through and get over. And, um, you know, and and then when it happens again, you've got no chance of a natural conception.

So it's very final that, you know, it's like a final thing and and it's, it's very, very difficult to, to deal with.

How did you navigate through that time because obviously I'd like you said, the no one prepares you for the grief of baby loss, whatever baby loss is yours, whether it's IVF, theft topic.

Ever child loss, whatever the loss is, no one can prepare you for that grief.

And for like a year and you say an eptopic pregnancy and you're having like something of your body removed and it's the final thing, isn't it?

It's like, yeah.

No, there's no, you can't conceive after that.

How did you navigate? Process?

How did you get through that?

I think it was months of, of feeling bereaved, and It, like I said, it was more a bereavement for what was now not possible, because the 1st topic I was about 12 weeks.

So that was a lot further on, but I hadn't lost hope.

The 2nd one, I was only sort of a week after finding out, so perhaps 6 weeks, and You know, it hadn't really sunk in that much, to be honest.

So it was more.

It was less of the baby and more of the finality of the situation, I think, which was just horrendous.

I think it took me months to stop weeping at the drop of a hat and um,

I think it was only after we decided we would go down the IBF route and it had to be private because my husband hadn't any children.

It was my 2nd husband.

So my son didn't count for him that the fact that he hadn't got any children, because I had one, we had to pay for it.

Which I also think is really unfair that with the IBF and I think it's still the same, that,

Yeah, that it goes on.

If one of you've got a child.

Or definitely if the mum's got a child.

IBF, do you have to, obviously, I don't know, but we did try to attempt IVF at one and we only just... the process at the early stage, but we were too overweight to even be considered at the time.

Which at the time I wasn't even at my heaviest then, so it was like, wow, okay.

And the amount of weight he asked us to lose was just like, it was great.

It's like we needed to be like 7 stone or something stupid.

It was like, wow.

So we never, um, we never put, like, went forward.

Yeah, I think it's, that's probably easier now as well, I think, that they've probably realised that you don't have to be 7 stone to conceive, you know what I mean?

I think they've probably gone beyond that.

Yeah, so what I was asking, obviously gone through, it was do they go from like how many miscarriages you've had to go through before you get IVF on the NHS or what's the procedure?

Well, I didn't get it on the NHS, obviously, so we had to pay for it.

But, um,

I don't know that it's that.

There's a length of time, or there used to be, again, I'm not up to date with this, because it's quite a long time ago, but I think you'd used to have to have been trying for at least 12 months, naturally, before they even considered you on the NHS, but that, again, may be different, but it's worth if people are looking to do that.

It's worth asking all these questions 1st rather than getting your hopes up. If you've got to keep trying for a bit longer, you know what I mean?

It's worth enquiring, isn't it?

Of course.

And that's an invasive procedure as well.

That's sort of nerve-wracking because you're spending all this money and then, you know, what if it doesn't work?

Um, But thankfully, it did, and we had frozen embryos as well.

And twice afterwards after my daughter was born.

We tried, you know, an implant, a frozen embryos, but neither of those times worked.

But I was okay.

I'd got the boy and the girl and I'm, you know, I've got the two.

It was just a, let's have another really quickly to keep her company because the gap was 9 and half years by this time between them.

So that was, that was the reason really to try and get her a little companion, but it didn't work out. Yeah, it, that wasn't, that wasn't a major upset in, in a way, apart from wasting money, but, you know, yeah.

You know, they might spend and, you know, um, how, how was that bit, the age difference, how did you navigate that?

All right, or how was that with the age gap?

Um great.

Until she got a little character and was toddling around and he was about, you know, coming up to 13 and not and he was very interested in the beginning and really delighted to have a sibling.

But then, yeah, when a couple of years later, it was like, get her off my things and don't let her touch, you know, all the usual.

Um, and they weren't very close until They both got to adult, really.

And they are now, but they, yeah, they weren't, really, because the gap, it was fine.

It was like having the 1st one again for me.

Because it was 9.5 years and I didn't, I didn't remember what to do and have to bath a baby and all of that.

But, He helped and he enjoyed it and he was more independent, so that was easier for me.

You know, he was, I didn't have to get him ready for school.

He could get himself organised, so that was easy.

The age gap for that bit was good.

But, Yeah, they weren't.

They weren't close, but like, a bit later on when he was teenage.

age.

I did have a babysitter, but that was all.

Yeah.

So let's just talk about the grief journey through.

mind touching on that because you've touched on quite a few different levels of grief.

Obviously, the loss of a bit the babies, the traumatic going through either the IVF procedure or going through having an operation twice.

The grief of you might not be able to have a 2nd child that you're always monitored.

So that's another grief process, isn't it?

Because that's something.

Yate.

And it still does get me at time.

I still have to work on that because I wanted Isaac to be a normal child.

So I still do more and grieve over that having that 2nd child still.

Where did you navigate all those different kinds of grief, which was the, well, I can't say which was the worst, but which was the hardest, I suppose, to navigate for you.

That finality that you can't do this naturally anymore.

This is not going to happen.

I'd always had hope.

I think you always have hope, don't you, till they tell you.

That's it.

No more.

You know, you can't do this now, and that was, that was the worst.

I mean, yes it was sad.

Losing them for sure, but it was, it was that.

It was just that, no, you've got to now either go down this costly IVF route or resign yourself to having one.

Um, And like I said, it took a long time to get over that.

I think my 2nd husband proposed after a few months, because we weren't married at the time, because he thought that would give me something to occupy my mind with, you know, because I did need something to occupy my mind.

And he said, look, we'll plan a wedding.

You can plan all that in he knows I'm a planner and an organiser.

Um,

And it helped.

It helped having a focus.

Yeah.

Um, until we went for the IBF.

But yeah.

I always think you've got to have something else to focus on.

Um, And that, that did help, but, and I was also really grateful to him for the fact he had no natural children and he was marrying somebody that potentially would never be able to conceive a child for him because he wanted children.

Because that's live, isn't it?

So, how daging part?

Okay, that how did he cope with that news?

Well, he was very upset at the time, but I think he got a bit frustrated with me for the length of time that I was upset afterwards.

Hey, um,

So, Looking back, yeah, I think he wasn't unkind about it.

But I think he just thought I would be able to move on a bit quicker than I did and was a bit fed up with me, you know, sobbing at night and that, so, yeah.

Um, but then I could say, He gave me something to plan.

But, And stuck by me and that's something you think, well, look.

You know, he could have walked away, couldn't he?

So.

Did it?

Did it bring you stronger or did anything change in your relationship?

Um.

Not really.

No, I think I think.

He was he was happy to go through the process through the IVF process.

No, I don't think it, it made us stronger or weaker.

I think we just plodded on with it all and yeah, I think so.

It's hard to think.

Yeah, it's hard to think back on that, but.

Because I think I've blocked a lot out at the time when you're just grieving.

You're not considering everything else that's going on around.

Um, you're not, Taking it all in, really.

No, exactly, you don't, do you?

In that. Freeze.

Um state, aren't you?

You know, that free, that numb, that numbness you go through.

I feel anyway, definitely.

Yeah.

Did it in, like, did any of it impact your confidence and the way you showed up to the world?

Did it impact you in any other ways apart from obviously the grieving and the loss and The things that happen to your body, anything else, would you say if you can remember?

Um, I don't think it affected my confidence.

No.

Um,

I think it made me avoid friends that were having babies a little bit, not entirely, and I think that's quite natural, and I think we all do that, when you're either trying to conceive, and it's not happening or you've lost, then you don't really want to be around them.

Um, But there wasn't lots, you know, it wasn't like I wasn't going anywhere of doing anything, but, you know, I was back at work after whatever, not weeks, yeah, had off with the surgeries and, There'd be people always leaving there because I worked in a big office environment at the time and, you know, having baby showers in the office.

And it's hard to show up and smile at these things, isn't it?

But you do, you get through it, you just do it.

You just have to, because it's not their fault.

You know, so.

No, definitely.

What kind of support?

I mean, obviously you said that you didn't get any support like from the hospital, the NHS or anything like that?

Did you get? What, did friends, family, support you or?

I mean, yeah, I think friends were.

Nice and kind about it all, but none of them had experienced it, so they didn't really know what to say about it all.

Um, you know, just do you need anything?

The usual scenario.

I've got some nice friends, but there wasn't, there was nothing they could do to help me with my grief.

No, nothing at all.

People say, oh, it's great.

Youve got all this support.

Doesn't make any difference.

I don't think. It's in you, isn't it?

I don't think no matter how many people try and say the right thing.

It's, it's not changing anything till York, till you work through it.

Yeah.

What helped you work through it, would you say?

Is there anything in particular that helped you?

Just that planning a wedding, giving me a focus, something to get my mind on too.

Um,

I suppose I had to go back to work and um, you know, show up there and and work.

So my mind was more occupied in the day. It was still this evening, in the evening or lying in bed that I used to drift off thinking about it again.

Um, But then, As I say, after the wedding, we did the IVF and that was great.

So there was always a focus, a big focus.

I don't know how I'd have navigated it without that, really, because I think that was what helped me.

Yeah, I think definitely having a focus really helps, doesn't it?

If you can focus just into something.

It's not ignoring the grief because we still have to deal with the grief and deal with anything that's coming up, don't we?

Because, yeah.

You suppress it, it's just going to come and bite you in the bum at some point.

So it is, it's not about ignoring your feelings or having to deal with it.

But it's just another.

It's a tool, isn't it, to help you get through that.

Yeah, and I'm sure it crops up in the deep recesses of my subconscious from time to time, you know, when you feel low and there's all sorts of dramas going on.

I think.

It's there.

It's trauma, isn't it?

And you, I work with the people with hoarding disorder and I know what trauma's like, um, and how many traumas people go through, multiple traumas in their life.

So I'm sure it is classed as one and it's there somewhere, affecting somehow at some point it's probably affected my mental health, but I've not pinpointed that as affecting anything.

No, which is good.

Yeah, definitely.

And like you say, everybody's journey is different as ever, or is different.

And this is why I like this podcast is because We're coming at at it from all different angles, everybody's story is completely different, which is for other people to hear, um, and whether they can, you know, relate to it.

Would you, what would you have wished for to have happened any differently?

What support would you have wished for?

Was there anything that happened in the hospitals, you know, that you'd wish that was different?

Um,

In hospital.

I'm not sure.

I just think that the, if there'd have been something you could go away with, like a call, a number to call, to discuss, um, some sort of help group, would have been really beneficial.

Um, even if, like I say, it was just a call.

There wasn't even a number to call.

Um, But people that look could understand it.

Because when I was doing the IVF there was.

There was an IVF loss number, because it's private, so that obviously they've got all these sort of things going on.

And there was a girl reached out to me quite local to where I was.

I didn't know, but they'd passed on people who'd had a successful conclusion, could be the voice at the end of the phone to try and help people, either decide to go through with it.

Or decide to do it again, or just to talk about why, how they'd got there and that.

So one person reached out.

I don't know whether they didn't keep me on the list or nobody else reached out after that, but that was interesting, but that was from the other side if you like.

Somebody asking for advice from me.

But there was nothing at the time, no, nothing at all, and I think that would have been really good because even my husband didn't understand what I was feeling.

Yet somebody had gone through, it would have.

Oh, I hope they would, yeah.

That's it.

I think just having those support circles, you don't know where to turn when you go through that, you feel all alone, don't you?

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

You going through it and if you could have access to a support group, that the NHS, you know, um pinpointed to you when referring to.

And as couples as well, because like you say,

Partners don't understand what you're going through either.

So having other couples to talk to as well for them, I feel would be beneficial as well, because obviously, being a lot of things.

Don't they don't talk about the feeling.

So, you know, I think for them, they're going through it too at the end of the day.

Um, you know, I feel that a support group would be of how, you know, real benefit to people.

And I don't know whether there is anything like that now it, but when I agree with you when I went through it, there was nothing like that.

So...

What would you say to anybody?

Going through anything like this right now?

Is there any words of wisdom you can say to somebody?

Never give up hope.

It, you know, it does keep you going and it, people say you should just accept it.

I don't believe that.

Um,

But also maybe go out and look for these groups.

I know it's difficult because you're not in the right frame of mind, but there may be some now, that we've not found, might be a good thing to look into, Heather, what's out there, really.

Try and find someone that's gone through it because I didn't know anyone that had gone through EpTopic at all.

Nobody.

So I couldn't discuss it with anyone.

Um, But there will be somebody that you can discuss with, even if it's, I don't know, just a, an individual that someone knows someone, you know, and maybe they'd just have a chat with you, that'd be, as good as anything, really, if there's no... Another is for my health groups that specialise in, um, beg them.

Um, so it's worth just, um, you know, into your local Facebook groups and searching because I bet there is quite a lot that have popped up now, little communities.

There's obviously Tommy's charity as well, which, um, and I'm sure they can pinpoint people, um, to relevant things as well.

So yeah, there is quite, there is a few coming up now, which is really good to see.

But I just, it's people knowing about them, isn't it?

So I do, you know, the NHS have got something now where they can say, we don't provide anything, but there's this, this, this, and this, that you can go to.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And don't expect other people to understand how you're feeling.

Don't get upset if people don't understand you.

It's, it's difficult to, to understand and that's why you're doing this podcast is wonderful, I think, to try and help one or 2 people.

Not feel isolated about it.

Exactly.

Exactly, definitely.

So one last thing.

If you could.

As you are now, the person that you are today speak back to that person when you 1st had the 1st miscarriage, what would you say back to her today?

Um,

Oh, that's an interesting one, isn't it?

Um, Because I hadn't lost hope at that point.

I think it'd be more relevant to talk to me after the 2nd one where I'd lost hope and I was grieving and I'd,

I'd just said keep your spirits up as best you can.

Don't give up.

Look at what's available.

Yeah.

Plan something, focus on something else.

Not to forget, but just to keep your mental health, you know, stable during the whole period.

Yeah, no, definitely.

Thank you for that.

And any last words of wisdom that we've not covered?

Is there anything that you'd like to still share that we might not have covered?

Um, don't think so, Heather.

I think we've covered everything.

Yeah, it's been great to talk to you.

It's always good to talk as well, isn't it?

So, you know, anyone that thinks, well, my story won't be important.

Get in touch with Heather and. Come on the podcast.

That's my biggest tips to people and wish that I, something that I would say back to my younger self now, is talk, don't have away.

Don't keep it in, talk, have those conversations because talking does really, really help.

Yeah, yeah.

It really does.

And when I started sharing any of my story through, you know, all the different things.

It was like a therapeutic session formation, sharing it.

It is, it is, yeah.

They always say it is good to talk and it is.

It really is.

It certainly is.

Oh well, thank you so much for joining me on this podcast, Marie.

Oh, welcome.

And I'm so grateful for you sharing your story.

Thank you to everybody that's tuned in and listened.

Thank you for listening.

Thank you for listening.