Samantha Jones - Midwife to Fertility Specialist: Trusting Your Body, Trusting Your Instincts

Well, welcome to a very special episode, a bit of an episode with a difference.

So huge welcome to Samantha Jones, who is an ex-midwife for the NHS, but also now is a fertility and pregnancy specialist.

So we're going to come from 2 different angles on this episode.

So it's going to be a very powerful episode. And we're going to talk a little bit to Sam about her NHS and midwife journey and also what she does now to help ladies with the pregnancy and fertility journey.

So welcome to the podcast, Sam.

Oh, hi, Heather.

thank you very much for having me

And can I just say what an honour and a privilege it is?

I've listened to some of the previous episodes that you've had and some incredible women already.

So I'm very excited to be here.

Oh, thank you, darling.

Thank you.

So do you just want to tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey to start off with.

Yes, so, um, I have always wanted actually to be a midwife um, since time began.

I can't remember when I wasn't fascinated with the human body.

But in all honesty, the type of person that I am, I had to have my own children first.

So I had my own children and had a wonderful experience of midwifery care and decided that the fire was still there and my husband was fantastic and my children supported me wholeheartedly and I went back and did my training.

Um, And I think, um, the dream was to become a community midwife, um, and support women case loading.

and I hit that dream and I wasn't really happy.

And then I had moved into complimentary therapies and supporting women. In all honesty, I'd done it to get into the NHS with it because I'd seen a lot happening in England specifically and how wonderful it was.

Um, but unfortunately it wasn't something that was embraced as much in Wales, um, and I'd used it with my own.

daughter who had a threatened miscarriage.

Um, and I had supported her through 22 births because I've got 4 children and 2 grandchildren.

Um, And I think that the time that I've spent doing my private work and sort of the trauma work from birth led me to my field in terms of working in fertility.

And a lot of that was because of the experiences people were having.

They didn't want to have children again.

Um, which also included things like miscarriage um, and child loss.

So there was a lot kind of tied up in it, but that's kind of like how I got here.

Oh, wow.

So what inspired you to be a mid-

Was it something at school as early as that?

What inspired you to be a midwife?

Um, I think, you know what?

I just had a complete and utter fascination about how a woman's body.

works on menstrual cycle.

And as I've, as I've kind of gone through life and seen, especially in my work with kind of um, fertility, um, an IBF.

It's really sad that we don't actually understand how our body works and we don't view our menstrual cycle as our kind of monthly health report card.

Like we kind of normalise pain and we normalise heavy periods and we normalise all this stuff.

But when I did my training um, a few years back now, um, as an acupuncturist, It's where Eastern medicine really gives me the understanding of of how things should be balanced, um, rather than accepted.

So yeah, I've just had this real huge fascination with it.

Ah, amazing.

And how many years did you work with the NHS as a midwife?

So I worked for the NHS, um, round about, I think about 7 years and then I went into academia.

I was teaching student midwives in university, I became a lecturer.

Um, but I just, I loved it.

I was call what we call maternity led unit, midwifery led unit.

And I was core on there for women who were categorised as low risk.

We don't use that term not anymore, but they weren't really under like doctors, obstetricians.

Um, and then I moved out into the community and it was just fabulous.

I loved it.

I think one of the one of the turning points, though, was that when I had had my children, we had something called a domino midwifery model, which meant that your midwife came into the hospital with you or you could have home birth.

It was fantastic.

And I honestly thought that that's what I was going in to provide that was the kind of level of care.

Um, but it was very different.

We had hospital midwives and then we had community midwives under what's called integrated midwifery, although they're 2 very different jobs.

And I think when I realised that that wasn't going to happen.

And when a couple of my ladies wanted me at their home birth and if you weren't on call, you weren't really able to do that.

I kind of like, well what am I doing here?

Because like it's, that's the kind of job I believed it to be and I wanted to be there for the women that were on my caseload.

So, yeah, it became a little bit like I'm here where I want to be, but I'm really not happy.

So yeah, I felt like I wasn't able to have the conversations with the women.

I was building up the rapport, but not able to deliver the care in one aspect.

No, I can totally understand that.

And I know I've added some conversations with ladies that I've never had the same midwife throughout and they're having to retell their story over and over again and that causes more stress, doesn't there?

Is that one of the reasons why you left as a midwife because it you couldn't give the care that you wanted to give?

Absolutely.

I felt like the care was really disjointed.

It wasn't really trauma informed care.

Um, and you know, trauma is subjective.

It's based on a perception of what is that for somebody.

And when you're not heard.

by people and they are not actively listening, they're kind of listening to respond to you rather than listening to support what it is that you need to have.

Then that's a very different level of care that I was kind of like, I've got 10 minutes here.

And the protocols and things weren't really fitting with the women that were walking through the door.

Um, and when you're when you're kind of like in the NHS, it's much, much harder, um, to kind of navigate that system.

Independent midwifling when you're outside of it.

You can support women, which is what I do a lot now in terms of birth preparation.

We talk about what their situation is and how that they can navigate it and what the law is around it actually, because there are certain precedent cases that have actually changed how things are viewed and you do have rights as women going into your maternity care.

Oh wow.

Amazing.

Well, come on to that in a 2nd actually.

But I just want to talk about a bit of positives.

What would you say the most rewarding moments you experienced being a midwife?

Oh my gosh.

There are so many. And I know people think that it's all about the babies, but actually it's for me, I think it was the ability of helping a woman achieve the experience of becoming a mum.

in that moment and watch it, and I always used to say, I remember a lot, a lot, and I do it now, actually, when, when new parents, whether it's their 1st baby or subsequent babies, like, who is going to tell you the sex of this baby, who's going to confirm it?

That is, that is an intimate moment that happens, that only.

And do you really want the midwife to do it or actually is that the moment that you 2 want to share?

It's so special.

Um, and I think once the realisation, because I remember when I had my 1st baby.

My eldest daughter, Fiance.

And I remember after I'd had it looking in this crib when everyone had gone home because I did have a hospital birth for my 1st thinking, 0 my god, she's mine.

It was just, yeah, and you know, for everyone to, I, and that's the thing that I want for everyone that I work with, is that, is that level of compassion and, you know, giving back to the women in that weight.

This is their journey where there is a support where there is an observer.

We're there to help them get whatever experience it is that they're trying to achieve.

Yeah.

Yeah, amazing.

That beautiful.

So we'll flip it.

What are some of the hardest moments you've had to witness?

Oh, gosh.

I think some of the hardest moments are when the the policies and the protocols really don't fit the circumstances.

So I've worked with people who've been neurodivergent.

And some of my training that I've done independent outside of the NHS gives me a better understanding of how that evolves.

So I tried very hard to fit that and things like um, explaining what would happen in the next session and towards the end of the pregnancies and when we needed to change things, what could come up and trying to really um, to implement that.

So it was, it worked for the people that were going through it.

Um, which was sometimes very difficult because even though you had preempted that and done it didn't necessarily mean that that's how it was going to go on the day.

just because other people perhaps hadn't got an understanding of what it is you were trying to achieve or trying to do.

And let's be honest, you know, as an autonomous practitioner, which is what you are as a midwife, if you've made a certain call, then that support should be there, regardless of whether that's in the hospital or whether it's from a colleague or, and sometimes that's the challenge, isn't it?

when everything's busy.

But I think ultimately we have to remember that there are people at the end of these journeys, there are people going through this, and we have to do it trauma informed, we have to do it compassionately, and we have to understand what it is that they need. Yeah.

Does the NHS provide trauma informed coaching for the midwives.

I know you said that you did it outside of the NHS, didn't you?

Yeah, so I think it, the programmes that we have in terms of what's validated by like the LMCs, which is like our professional body, they can be all very, very, very different across all different universities.

And I think it's something that we used to do very well and we actually still do very well in the university I work in.

And we do do trauma informed care.

So I think it is important for it to be recognised.

I think we're getting better at it.

But time constraints, et cetera, um policies, policies are a big driver, you know, people are, I think it's what we would, we would definitely call um defensive practice.

Nobody wants to be kind of how to account or held accountable of things potentially that they feel is the, is, is, perhaps not the way that it would be done rather than should be done, let's say. So, um, but I think we are, we are getting better in maternity services.

Another hardship is, you know, all of the reports and things that are coming out at the moment. And I think the difficulty there is those same findings have been extracted time and time again.

And we don't seem to be moving forward with that, and that, that for me would be, the way that we need to start looking at things, yeah.

Definitely.

So some of the podcasts that I've already done, the majority of the stories have all been the same about how bad they've had an experience through the NHS, sadly.

From, I want to hear it from like your side, what do you see and?

You know, what care do you think could be changed or needs to be changed?

What do you see from?

I want people to see your side of the store and what pressures you're on as well, working as a midwife?

Because there's 2 sides to every story obviously, isn't there?

And the past are shared, obviously.

Our side and the care that we've received are not received.

What is it from your side?

Yeah, so, I think it helps having, um, the perspective as well, having worked in the NHS also working as a private practitioner outside of the NHS in terms of trauma, because when you're when you're away from the environment, the triggers and different things, that is that is a whole different space in in which women feel safe, let's say, for example. But I think one of the biggest things that

Definitely stuck with me through my training and what we did, um, when we became qualified was certainly, when a woman had lost a baby, that it was fundamentally uh, antenatal or gainy or maternity services, where that woman was seen, you know, like we hear lots of different stories, don't we, about women who hear babies after they've, you know, lost their own baby and then are are given very little guidance really.

in terms of what the next steps are.

Um, I think now, there seems to be a turning point in relation to the care and the compassion, moving things away from like the labour ward when women are giving birth to babies that they have lost, so that there are, there are definitely moves in the right direction.

Is it enough?

Wow.

No, not really.

We don't tend to have the correct setup of services, the space. And, you know, we hear it all the time, don't we, about the services that are out there and they're kind of not really fit for purpose.

They're kind of doing the best that they can with what they've got.

And that's not great.

And as a community midwife, and I do remember this having done my um, my fertility work outside of the NHS.

And I think this is a big, this is a big thing for me that um, and because my daughter went through um, a threatened miscarriage.

Was that when a woman has had, whether it's a 1st loss or subsequent loss, Hmm.

Their level of

Heightened fear.

is so, so much so, that when they come in to see you, It's not good enough to say,

Uh, well, we don't have any scan spaces or we can't do X, Y, and Z.

You know, that woman is looking for reassurance in one way or another.

She just wants to know.

Um, and there were times when I had women who I would send in because of their level, and we know, you know, we know that when women are stressed, even in pregnancy, it can have effect on babies.

You know, the cortisol, the adrenaline rushes, it can have effect on babies, their brains and how they're developed.

So we really shouldn't be supporting this level of stress.

We need to start mitigating how we are supporting women through these episodes of care.

You know, it's really, really important in these early days.

Yeah.

Like, some, like, for me, I think, obviously there is, um, I forgot what brain fog today.

There is a unit.

It isn't there for like early pregnancies where you where you could go for like the early scans and things like that if you're showing any signs of problems.

But what I feel there should be.

And obviously it would have been down to funding and space and I don't know whether this could ever happen.

But it's almost like you want a special building unit that is just far, women who are potentially losing their babies are going through difficulties, so you're completely away.

And those staff then in that particular unit can be more trauma informed, I suppose.

Yeah. Um,

So they're given the what, I mean, what do you think to that?

Could that ever happen, do you think, in the NHS or would it really be down to the funding?

I think it would be down to funding.

And, you know, and that is a sad thing to say.

But I do, I do think it is, it's an important area because if a woman is able to understand what's happening.

So for example, when, when women have bleeds, And they have been sent in and all is well.

Sometimes those bleeds can be from different things that's happening in the cervix or different areas doesn't necessarily mean that it's coming from the miscarriage.

But if they've had a miscarriage before, that is amplified, and dependent on what gestation they've had that miscarriage, whether it's 6 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks, you know, I've worked with women who've been so scared of going for their scan, because they had an early pregnancy scan in their previous one, which was a private scan, all was well, and then they went for a subsequent one in the NHS and all wasn't well.

That's what happened. And that fear, that, you know, that fear of getting to that 12 weeks, and we don't have any,

We don't have any discussions around it.

We don't have any support, like even like when you when you come out of that scan.

There's nothing.

No?

Like, you know, what are you meant to, what are you meant to do with that information?

Like there's no one that you can talk to?

You're sat with that information and there is nothing.

No, every time for mine.

Um, I didn't get a leaflet.

I didn't get anything, didn't get forwarded to any support or aftercare or anything.

I were just sent away.

Um, with a time and date to come back to have the babies removed every time.

No like detail of how that would work, what does that operation look like, what's going to happen?

Where's it going to be, all that kind of stuff.

It was just like you'd lost the baby.

You sat there crying.

They'll leave you for a few minutes and then you have to walk through the room again where everyone's waiting for the scans or getting the photographs of the babies that they've just had scans and they're all jolly and you've got to walk back through.

That was my case in my hospital.

That might not be the same for everybody.

That is just my experience.

And every time I had to walk through the room, again, obviously crying and distraught, going away, not knowing what's happened, why it's happened.

Uh, I mean, obviously a lot of the time we don't know, but, I'm what, I'm going through what the next steps actually are.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's just, I mean, everybody's journey is different, but that was my experience and it was just absolutely awful. It's immense, you know, it's really, it's a huge, huge load for one person to be able to manage that.

And I think also, if your partner is with you, they don't know what to do either.

They don't know what to do for the best, they don't know what to say, they don't know.

So even if, even if the next step is that we have something that is sits alongside stands so that if that news is ever delivered to a woman, they have immediate support from someone who is trained in trauma informed care, and they can sit and talk like what the next steps are.

Um, you know, how the next piece unfolds and answer any questions that you might have.

And I appreciate, you know, there might be some women who like literally are not ready to talk there and then.

And that's okay.

But there should be somewhere where they have an opportunity to come back at any time.

And have those conversations.

That's really important.

Yes, indeed, I mean, I interviewed a lovely lady a few episodes ago, and I didn't even know this was the case, so I hope a lot of people listen to her episode when it comes out, is that I didn't even know that you could ask for like the baby, you know, when it's removed, that you could ask for those, so you could like obviously have a burial or whatever you needed to have.

Um, and I never knew that was, I think.

You know, I could have asked potentially for my 7 baby, I could have had them buried.

But I didn't know it was a thing that you could ask for them to keep whatever they removed for you to take away and.

And in that headspace, just thinking about that, like, isn't it a shame that the onus is on you to have to ask?

Realistically, should we not give it to you as an option?

Exactly.

Yeah, I didn't even know it was a thing.

So yeah, um, interested, isn't it?

I'm sure as time goes, hopefully it will get better, but if one thing you could change about maternity care tomorrow, what would it be?

But you're on the speed, yeah.

That's a hugely loaded question.

I'm sure there's going to be lots of things, but.

Do you know what?

In all honesty, um, If I could change something for maternity care.

I, there's 2 things.

I would change the blame culture.

Um, and I would change the time constraints. Because I'm sure every single midwife out there wants more time to spend with their women, they really do want to know what's going on in their journey.

They really do, want to be there and support them.

Um, and, and I think genuinely, I remember going on a, um, on a training day.

Which was to do with trauma, actually.

And we were asked to write on post-its.

And it was literally pre-COVID and put them on a wall of if we could have anything.

In maternity to transform it.

What would it be?

And the woman, and it did strike me, the woman that was actually facilitating the day.

said.

We none of us had put anything about money, salary, or anything.

We had all talked about things like, could we have better equipment?

Could we have more time, could we have?

So I think that still exists, actually.

I think if you're a midwife, it's in your blood. And I think that definitely midwife means to be with woman.

That's what it means with woman.

So I think that is what women, that's what midwife wants.

They want to be with women.

Oh, that's beautiful.

That is really nice to hear actually that side because obviously on my side.

I've just heard everybody's,

Obviously, sad stories and the stress that they've had and not the care that they have.

But to hear that, yeah, from your side, midwives do want to care.

It's just, obviously, the time they're given to spend with each.

Patient.

Absolutely. Yeah, so let's go on to some information that might help ladies listening to this.

What advice would you give any woman listen to this about trusting their instincts through pregnancy?

What could they look out for?

Yeah.

So 100% if they're trusting if they can listen to that.

It's in, and again, I was talking to you about, um, Some of the laws that have come out.

So what? I did manage that actually.

Yeah, so one of the laws that came out was something called the Lanarkshire versus Montgomeryshire case, which was back in 2015, and what that did was it created something called the brain acronym.

And we use it a lot in maternity care.

And basically it's like if there's anything that is been discussed in terms of an intervention or a process or something around your care.

Then the brain stands for what benefits does it provide for you?

What risks does it have in relation to your care?

Um, what alternatives?

Could there be rather than what you're being asked for?

I is for intuition.

So it's interesting to be back to that.

And Anne was that if we did nothing,

What would then unfold, what plan could we put in place?

What kind of milestones can we look at?

And I do remember an obstetrician. Who was very wise and he was absolutely fabulous.

He had a brilliant bedside manner.

And in fact, I was just talking about this gentleman the other day and um, he did.

I remember being a midwife whilst he was doing a little bit of medical teaching with one of the medical students.

Um, and he'd asked this lady her, her, what was going on and he'd asked the medical student um, kind of what, uh, what would you do?

Um, and when she gave her answer, it was very medical and he was like, that's great, but she's just said X and he said, I'm going to give you a really good piece of advice.

Ignore woman's intuition at your own peril.

And I can honestly say, if someone is telling you there is something that is off, then go with it because there could be.

Um, I would say for anyone um, that's kind of experiencing, any sort of loss, the way that it, sometimes there is nothing.

Sometimes women will not ex, you know, that's why sometimes we turn up at the scans and we're really shocked by the news that we have.

So sometimes that is how it unfolds.

Other times we can have things like, um, bright red spotting.

Um, sometimes we can have like brown coloured, which is what we call old blood.

So anything that's kind of old, it would suggest that there's something happened, not necessarily negative.

Um, so it's good to get checked out.

Um, I kind of always had the opinion that, It's balancing like,

Is the level of distress for a woman.

And the potential impact of how the baby's brain, which is unfolding, even at 6 weeks gestation.

You know, we have a lot going on from from conception up until 12 weeks.

There's a lot of changes happen very, very rapidly.

So therefore, when you think about what's going on for that woman and the level of hormones that are going through.

It's really important to try to alleviate that as much as possible.

So I would send women for scans, um, and there were times when the protocol was that they had to be like have pain or heavy bleeding, which would indicate potentially something like an ectopic pregnancy.

Um, which can be, you know, um, really, really detrimental if things um, were to burst things like that.

So it's important to Support the woman as best we can.

Um, but I would send ladies in for scans, um, because I just think sometimes it's about what's what's happening um, in that moment, and I think you have to make that call as a healthcare professional.

I think my tit would be as well from my experiences, don't be afraid to ask and push for that scan.

Because like, you know, intuition if you don't feel right.

There's getting a balance, what you say, there's getting a balances, there have been,

I'm not saying paranoid, but just being scared about of everything because women can be, especially if you've had a lot of some miscarriages, like I have every single thing you worry about then, every single flinch, not flinch, anything you panic about.

But I would honestly say if you really think something is wrong, then push for those scans or even if those anxiety levels are getting out of control.

Go and get a scam just for a peace of mind, definitely, I would say.

Absolutely.

We can still have private scans.

That's, you know, a given.

But the other side of that, working in the kind of private field that I work in, then I think it's always worth considering someone that may have knowledge of what is happening in terms of miscarriage.

Acupuncture is always fantastic and that's what we did with my daughter when she had a threatened miscarriage.

Um, she had a very stressful job and stress can be one of the kind of um, things that can make it worse.

Um, and and but we were very fortunate in that when we did the acupuncture, we did it daily.

And with each day, the bleeding got less and all was well.

So it is important that there are things that can also support in that area, not necessarily funded by the NHS, but there are certainly things out there that can help and support this kind of timeline.

If someone out there is feeling like they really need that support and help.

Sure.

Is that something that you can now help, let anybody listening to this that you could help them through that journey, yeah?

Yeah, absolutely.

So I do some work online because we can use acupressure in some circumstances.

We can also use, and like you said, NLP techniques.

Um, and there are, and I do acupuncture here in the clinic, um, when we've got other things that are going on also. Um, so yeah, it is, it is worth, Oh, we're going to come on to your new work in a 2nd, but one last question about the midwife, um, um, perspective.

What questions do you think a woman should not be scared of asking the midwife for about or is the questions that they should be asking the midwife but often don't because we don't know that we're allowed to ask that maybe or.

What advice would you give of questions that we should be asking our midwives?

Yeah, so I think that's a hard one because I don't think anyone should be muted.

I think if you've got a question.

It's good to ask.

Um, and I think it's important, like, We don't all have the same training.

Some of us have extended training outside of our NHS roles.

So, it's not always that we are all on the same training.

So it's also important for midwives to be able to go and seek that guidance from other sources or colleagues that can support. But I do think that if women have concerns.

Absolutely, find, you know, if you're not getting what you need at that point, then it is important to find somebody who can support you in the right way for you to be able to navigate that journey.

Um, because it's, it's just not acceptable, um, to just be left, you know?

Yeah.

Oh, thank you for that.

So we're going to go on to your fertility role now.

So what made you get into your fertility and pregnancy role as a specialist?

Yes, so um, I think I started with complimentary therapies as a midwife.

Um, and I remember doing some observational clinics in one of the trusts in England and I started with like aromatherapy and it kind of moved into um, acupuncture very quickly because the women that were there in the NHS didn't manage to get to the aromatherapy.

So I thought, what's going on with acupuncture?

So I then went to train with a really fabulous establishment called expectancy down in London.

Um, and that was run by a lady who is an absolute guru and complimentary therapist, Denise Taran.

Um, and when I got into all of that, I just saw a difference like the acupuncture in terms of pain relief in pregnancy for things like SPD.

Um, and then, when I kind of came out the other side, the trauma work, I had done a lot of.

And from there, it then, it emerged that women were, having things like secondary and fertility, serve infotency because they just didn't want to get pregnant again.

They didn't want to have the same experience and I was like, 0 my god, this is this is mad.

So, um, I then qualified as a fully fledged acupuncturist because I wanted to know more about how it worked with fertility.

Um, And yeah, it just it kind of grew from there.

Um, and I've worked with women who've had all sorts um, from an explained infertility, uh, from one fallopian tube and and one ovary, um, to decades worth of IVF.

Um, and it's just been absolutely fascinating and most of my clients actually turn into really good friends.

Um, and it, it, it, it really does like me up, being able to help women through all aspects of this journey at whatever stage, something somewhere has gone a little awry.

Yeah.

I'm getting really emotional here.

Obviously, people can't see because there's no video, but yeah, getting really emotional because I'm just thinking of my journey and if I'd known you around that time, how different my journey potentially could have been.

Because I didn't know anything like this existed.

It's all education, isn't it?

If we don't know, you don't know about it, do you?

You know, you're saying about not wanting to try, we did have a time with my 2nd husband that we had to put a like, right, we're not, we can't try, we can't go through this any further.

And sadly, me and Barry have never had a child together.

Um, So yeah, our journey could have been a lot different if we'd known, known you or somebody similar, it would just, yeah, quite emotional.

But it's amazing what you're doing, and if this, if people can hear this podcast and if they're still going through a fertility journey, I want to have another one, but are scared to have another one, then at least they can find you now, which could open up so many different journeys with so many women.

Absolutely.

And I think one of the things that my business is kind of built on is choice that and that's where it sits really.

And the reason that it's all about choices because I'm not.

anti-anything.

I'm pro what a woman wants her experience to be.

And a lot of clients, I will say, have come to me because they've had experiences of IBF. And The thing that saddens me most is that IVF's great, honestly, for women who need it.

But what I see time and time again, are the women that are kind of shovelled down IVF, who actually don't. And it's, it's not.

I just think it's a reflection of The medical profession are very good at the medical aspects.

Yeah.

But not everything needs to be medicalized.

Um, one of the biggest drivers like unexplained infertility.

I'm like, that's the best actual diagnosis you can have because it means there's nothing wrong.

It's a about understanding what the root causes. And understanding once we've found that, just how we make the changes and make things happen.

Um, and I think, For me, it's, it's understanding reverse, um, cycling to get to that root cause because it's always more often than not hormonal imbalance or inflammation generally.

So it's a really interesting journey and I do.

I was just having a conversation with someone the other day and she said,

She had she'd asked someone to get in touch with me.

Um, and she, and I could see it on her face.

She was so sad and she said, and it's not because, you know, she hasn't got in touch with you.

It's because I remember I offered something called SOS calls.

So when you've been for IVF and you're worried about that 2 week wait, or if you've started bleeding, that SOS call is there, and she said, and I remember, I can't really remember what triggered it, but I remember needing to phone you and she was like, it was just like, Everything's okay.

It's, you know, and it's having somebody that you can do that with because very often women don't want to have that conversation with family, friends, partners, because, A, they really don't understand it a lot of the time.

And they don't want to upset somebody to the level that they're upset and they don't want to be filtered by what they want to say.

Sometimes they just want to scream, right?

It's like just that release of 0 my god, nobody gets this.

Um, and that's what she was saying.

And I think that's the sad thing is that actually.

There isn't anybody that does that.

So the emotional side of these journeys are, Oh my god, they're savage.

that, you know, they're huge.

So it's, yeah, it, that for me is, is probably what I enjoy the most is, is, is that support getting them through that.

Yeah, I can see that.

What would you say any myths were around fertility? Because I think it is all drummed into us, isn't it?

You have to go to the doctor.

You got that, you have to go to the NHS.

You have to go on tablets.

You have to have medical inter- and nobody knows about this.

You know, alternative therapies or when you mention like ReK, reflexology, people go, what is that?

How can that help?

Like when I talk to my dad about, I'm qualified in rake it.

It looks at me like I'm like I've gone stupid.

Like, what's next that?

And it is, isn't it?

So, what myths do you come across that, you know, about fertility and what would you like to get across to anybody listening?

Okay.

There are they're on loads.

I could sit here and just wheel them off.

I think the biggest thing, the biggest challenge, the biggest myth of it all.

Is just how much.

Our brain sits in the background and changes how our body works based on our life experience.

So therefore, what happens is in a lot of fertility journeys and which is, I would say attributable to the success that I have with my clients.

Is that They just don't.

Even contemplate that that is a thing.

But if you think about it logically.

You know, if we talk about even simple things, stress, for example, um, stress can change, like your blood pressure, you know, it can change, like you can have so low moods, um, it just changes the way your whole body functions.

And I remember, one of my, uh, one of my, My beautiful crap.

She had a 10 year journey.

it was incredible.

And when she started working with me.

I remember she sent me this text and she said, um, I don't know if you offer this.

I feel like the clinic has got everything covered going through IVF.

I feel like the clinic has got everything covered.

Um, but I wonder if you offer some emotional support.

And at the end of her journey, I asked her, um, she worked with me for 7 months.

She had a massive, she'd overstimulated in the clinic, having understimulated the 1st time.

Yeah.

Her partner had problems on all 3 counts of his spam, motility, morphology, and quantity.

They had worked with a nutritionist.

They had done various different things, and it was 10 years in.

Wow.

Yeah.

So there had been a lot going on in this journey.

And when we worked together for 7 months.

And she found out she was pregnant naturally.

Wow.

And she has got a little boy now and um, she was just like, when I when I asked her and what was the thing, she was like, I just didn't realise how disconnected from my own body, the whole journey had made her.

Yeah.

And I think that is the biggest myth.

That when we don't have our mind, our subconscious mind connected with how our body is working and we're not connected with ourselves.

It's the biggest block.

genuinely.

Yeah.

The pressure as well, when you are trying for a baby, it's so immense, isn't it?

But if you don't, some people get caught straight away and it's an accident or whatever, but if you are going through a journey where, right, this is what we're doing, we are going to try and conceive now and it's a planned thing.

The stress is so intense, isn't it?

Because you're waiting for

are you gonna come on your period?

Oh, yeah, we've come on.

It hasn't worked this time or no, but then you're late because the stress has caused you.

You know, you free to be late.

And then it's like next month, try again, and it's like, then you get the ovulation sticks and all that jars, and then it's like, I'm ovulating.

You need to come home from work now, we need to go on it like rabbits.

It's like the stress is just like that was my journey, obviously.

No, and that's the, yeah, that is absolutely a thing.

So it's part of my training, we talked about the cycle of despair.

And that cycle goes on every single month.

It kind of goes from the trying to then the kind of like, do I dare to hope because we've done the practical thing.

And then the fear, like if I am or if I'm not, and if I am, you know, does it stay, and if I'm not, it's another month loss, and you're grieving something that you want so intensely.

That you're just, it's almost out of reach.

And the other side of that is how long has that cycle then occurred? Because that then becomes this roller coaster that goes lower and lower and lower over years, decades.

You know, and and then other things then start really pressurising that because it's then like, oh, well, uh, you know, my age is a thing and, you know, like how, how am I going to, what if this never happens?

And so all of these things.

And then that's exacerbated by when you go and see these clinicians who are like, well, you know, your ovarian reserve is this and, you know, this is not really functioning the way that we want it to, and that builds belief.

That builds belief in the body that actually we are defunct.

Actually, no, we're not.

We just need to understand our menstrual cycle.

What is happening?

And when you look at the evidence, it's like, I talk a lot about fam methods, which is fertility awareness.

And it's 98, 99% if you get all of the elements right in being successful, which is the same as contraception the other way around.

So if you can, and there are, there are some studies out there that are very, very, um, supportive of these kind of methods and how using like the, um, mind body connection in conjunction with that, it can really amplify the results that happen for women without needing to go on medications.

And some of the medications, you know, can be very detrimental.

There's some medications in IVF that can be so bad that actually, it is a factor in having certain cancers when we're older, you know, further down the line because we've had these kind of interventions.

So it's interesting to understand that from the perspective that women don't necessarily have that information.

It's an education piece.

But because we're so focussed on the outcomes, we kind of think, well, we'll deal with that at a different time.

Yeah.

No, thank you for that.

This podcast is just this episode is just, yeah, wow, I think we're going to have to do an episode two and episode three.

I'm so much to talk about, is it, then?

Um, one of the things, what people might want to know, when can this like come to you?

When is the best time?

Can they come before they even start trying or do they have to wait for a miscarriage to happen?

When's the best time to come to a fertility specialist, like yourself?

I'm going to say the times have come to me.

is when you are ready.

But if I'm honest, the best time is to look at what is happening in your cycle and things at least 3 to 6 months before you even think about wanting to conceive.

And the reason that this is so important is because in our bodies, we have, we're made up of cells.

And our cellular health in terms of a Western culture is really, really poor.

And when we look at that and we think about the egg and the sperm bean cells,

If we can get that to a point where it's really healthy, and that we are driving it with different elements of our diet and different things, understanding whether or not we have, so this is the, like what infuriates me is when I see things on social media, like it's tech, take this supplement, do this, do that.

And we're asking strangers, like, would you go and walk up to somebody with a pregnancy test and what do you think of this?

It's kind of like, no.

And I wouldn't ask a chef to come and sort out my car.

Do you know what I mean?

It's kind of like if I'm going to have something that's so important to me, like the next generation, like my child, I want to make sure the greatest gift I can give them is health.

So the best thing to do is come to me or someone like me.

3 to 6 months before you're due to start.

And really amplify it because these kind of things can really offset miscarriage risk and that emotional turmoil.

Because we have a much better playing field and foundations that have been laid.

So for sure, preconception care, that is part of a midwives role, it's not really something that's done very well.

In the NHS, we don't generally see women until they're kind of like already peed on a steak and they find out that they're pregnant, um, which is not really the best time.

So if women genuinely want to know when to come best, it's normally 3 to 6 months before you're due to, you know, try to get pregnant.

So let's make the foundations the best that they can be.

Yeah.

But that's not saying the cat come to you if someone is listening to this had 5 miscarriages already, for instance.

No.

In fact, that's probably more because when I ask women, a lot of the questions that I ask, They're quite taken aback at things like, I'll very, when they're telling me their journey and I'll say to them, oh, so I'm going to ask you a question now, I think I know the answer, but like, were you ever on the contraceptive pill? And it's kind of like, well, yes.

And I'm like, okay, so that makes fully, I understand all of this. And they're like, 0 my god, we don't really understand the synthetic hormones that play a part of our fertility journey, especially if we've been put on it for a number of years in our early, um, adolescence.

It does have a massive impact to play and it also contributes to things like a PMOS.

It used to be known as PCOS.

So this is where we have more insulin, so it's more to do with nutrition.

So the different nuances that come from women experiencing a fertility journey means that what you may do for one woman or couple will not work for a different person because they're not, they don't share the same reasons. Like, if you had someone like was hypothyroidism, that would be totally different to like PCOS, PM, PMOS.

So you have to work with what the person that's coming with you to you for, you have to understand what's going on for her.

And a lot of people go, well, my cycle is this.

We don't generally tend to know a lot of our cycle a lot of the time.

Um, like people with PMOS.

Sometimes they can be what we call an ovulatory.

So what that means is that when they're paying on an ovulation stick, I see all the time in social media, like, oh, I've ovulated.

No, it's told you that you've had a rise in a hormone that then triggers ovulation.

But if you are an ovulatory,

You tried to release your egg every month, but you never actually release it.

So it doesn't matter how many times you have sex, you're not going to fertilise an egg that's not actually being released.

So then you have to work with, wow, okay, so let's work out with the hormones before that.

so we can get your egg released so we can understand what's going on with your cycle.

Wow.

Wow, wow, wow.

Yeah, so there's a lot, you know, it's not, everyone's different and you have to work with the differences of the people that are coming to you.

You can't, there's no blanket for this.

No, not at all.

So on this, just last question on this subject.

If people are listening now and obviously on a journey or starting a journey or had miscarriages and want to conceive still, what 3 tips could you give them to maybe try to enhance that possibility of them getting pregnant, like with maybe lifestyle changes or protecting the mental well-being or things that they should start doing in their lifestyle?

What tips would you give anybody?

Okay, so the 1st thing, fundamentally, the actual foundational piece, um, I would ask them to look at, if they, if they have any supplements, test what their Omega 6 to 3 ratio is, because if your Omega 6 is higher than your Omega 3 significantly, more than 3 to one, you have a lot of inflammation in the body.

So that already affects the cells itself, like how, how, how easy it is for things to get in and out of cells like toxins and nutrients and different things.

So that's the very 1st thing that I would suggest.

The 2nd thing is yes, definitely stress.

Um, And it's what I call like living in the weight.

Um, because if you're living to, if you're living in the weight, you're kind of, Acceptance of the baby that's going to come to you.

Whereas if you're waiting to live, you're putting everything off, you're not living life, you're totally focussed on something and feel like you're kind of, well, I can't do this, can't get married, can't go on holiday, can't do, you know, get the, get the new job or I can't.

So all of those things, then amplify the stress levels.

So, it's, it's having someone that can support you, to live, while we're waiting for this baby to come and embrace what's going on around you so that we have um, a level of um, quality of life.

you know?

Um, and then I think is definitely the mind body connection.

you can find someone that can do that.

Um, that, that is probably the top 3 things that I would suggest.

There are all, you know, you can you can go and look at different like lifestyle things for men and women.

When I work with couples, I tend not to do it together.

And I would realistically say because very often,

One is fearful of saying something that may trigger the other.

But it's really important for someone to have a space in which they can be open and honest and have those conversations so that they're free to voice it and talk it through and process it.

That's really important also.

Oh, thank you for that.

Great tips.

So I just want to finish on hope.

What's the biggest lesson you've learnt from working with women over the years, would you say?

I think, you know, women are, They're just, they've taught me so, so much.

And I think, in terms of the, They they trust.

A lot of the time.

And when that trust is broken.

In any, in any part of their journey.

That can be the biggest barrier to finding.

The most effective care.

And I would like to offer people hope because I, like I said to you before, you know, I've, I've had so many people with so many different journeys and I can give you,

The way I work is intuitively.

And I recall one lady that I had, and I said to her, I feel like there's something here that is just, um, that there's something else.

And she literally turns to me and she said.

Well, I was abused when I was a child and I never told anybody.

Um, and we talked it through and I said to her, that's it.

That's that's it.

And I said, you don't have to go away.

You don't have to tell anybody if you don't want to.

That's not the, that's not the process.

Um, and she came back the next month and she was like, I'm pregnant.

And it's like because she felt like she, behind that, what it was, was that she felt like there was something that, as a mum, the fear of not being there or or not being the protective, um, you know, from what her experience was.

And I think when you have that intuition and I think midwives have an extremely attuned intuition, you just know.

Um, when you're tuned into that and you know, you know.

Beautiful.

beautiful.

If someone's listening today and feels like giving up on their journey, what would you want them to hear?

If Changing.

Their pathway is right for them, and it's come from a place that they want it as a choice.

That's fine.

You know, they don't have to feel like they have to stay on this path.

But if that's not a choice, if they feel like that is.

Almost something that is forced upon them.

Then that's not okay.

That is when it's important to have the conversations, to understand where you're at, what is available to you, and how things could be shaped very, very differently.

And it doesn't necessarily mean that you do or you don't need Western medicine.

But where I would say working with somebody who has an understanding of the mind, body connection, and the eastern medicine, where it meets Western medicine, and understanding how the body functions, and how we return back to balance.

That is where the actual magic happens.

So don't give up hope.

If you've got a journey that you feel you are here to pursue, Then it's just about finding the right support for you.

Amazing.

Perfect advice.

I feel like I need to rename you, Sam.

You're the fertility and pregnancy, fairy godmother with the magic.

Oh my god, can you imagine if you gave me a wonder, be like Harry Potter around my house and be like, you can do this. Boom.

I could just say, you are.

He does the scary godmother and everybody who wants to be on a journey and have a baby in struggling needs to be in contact with you.

How, before I ask you the last last question, how can people come and find you if they want to have a chat?

Yeah, so they can, they can find me on social media, um, or they can find me on my website, natural pregnant, natural fertility and pregnancy.com.

They can um, I, I can drop you some stuff, they can get in touch with me.

I'm very, very accessible.

Email me Sam at natural uh pregnancy. Wales.

And yeah, I'm so open.

I'm really big on having conversations 1st because I think it's important that people are able to just build that, um, rapport with you and understand more about what's going on and, you know, I think that's really important when you're dealing with such, um, a life chapter.

Definitely.

Definitely beautiful.

So this question comes, obviously, from my own journey and probably resonates with a lot of people listening to this.

So my last question for you is if you could sit with every woman who has experienced baby loss or infertility for just 5 minutes, what would you want her to know?

Wow.

That is that is...

It would probably give you that question before to think about.

Um,

I would want her to know that it is okay not to be okay.

And I'd wanted to know, oh, you got me going now.

Um, Just thinking about sort of the journey, um, that my daughter went through.

That having somebody there.

That you can.

Just rant, just, you know, let loose, scream if you have to.

Just having somebody there that you don't have to be filtered with.

is really important.

And if that person Can then help you to navigate that pathway, in however that unfolds for you, and like I say, you know, I'm totally pro-choice and everybody is different.

But having that understanding, that is, that's just the be all and end all really, but ultimately, it is okay not to be okay and have that support through that.

Totally.

Thank you so much.

And I'm going to end it there where we're both crying.

Thank you so much for this podcast.

I know it's going to help so many women and I'm sure I'll get you back on for another episode as well.

That was just perfect on all levels.

So thank you from me personally and thank you for every woman who out there who needs Sam Jones in their life.

Oh, thank you, heaven.

Thank you so much for that, you know, the opportunity to come and talk, you know, about my experiences.

And if there is anybody out there who wants anything specific, like any topics or anything, I'm more than happy to come back and have some more conversation.

Beautiful.

Thank you, darling.

And thank you to everybody that's listened to this episode.

And if this episode may resonate to somebody that you might know.

So thank you for listening.

So thank you for listening.